Discussion about this post

User's avatar
beth's avatar

Leapfrogging past most of the substantive stuff to opine about left vs liberal... regardless of its origins, my whole life the vernacular of "liberal" meant leftwing and the opposite of conservative, and likewise "conservative" meant the reverse. Is it useful to describe political thought as two binary poles? Who cares, that's how probably 98% of this country understands it, and as far as I'm concerned, self-labeled "leftists" are the only part of the entire leftwing coalition in this country who feel the need to distinguish themselves from other leftwing people because they disdain them. Whatever people call themselves - progressive, liberal, leftist, Democratic - I don't care, so long as the label isn't used to factionalize rather clarify particular nuances of your own stances. But in practice that is almost solely what it is used for when self-applied, and then when Normies use the term to describe others they see zero distinction anyway.

It drives me absolutely crazy that "liberal" is often defined by people who specifically consider themselves not liberals. Conservatives of course use liberal as a perjorative, and I don't know why leftwing people think it makes sense to adopt that very same messaging. It's like, dude, to the people who you are trying persuade to vote for you and adopt your policies, *you are a goddamn liberal to them!* But even beyond that, so many leftists seem to view "liberals" as like, a crappier spineless version of all their own beliefs rather than a coherent ideology that might sincerely and intelligently disagree with particular positions or values, and so much of that comes from never actually respecting the people they consider liberals enough to listen to what they say they believe. One of the purest distillations I've seen of this was on ContraPoints' latest tangent about Daddy Politics:

"I'm also #concerned by the end of this video. While I've known I'm probably a bit farther left than Natalie, nothing about her videos has ever suggested she's a liberal, or wanted to create more liberals (in the American sense). Liberals are for Israel, genocide in Gaza, for profit healthcare, foreign wars, billionaires, stagnant wages, p. much stagnant everything. The status quo."

Natalie, of course, has talked all the time about what her actual views are and why she is satisfied with the label "liberal*," but this guy is like, "uhh, instead of actually listening to what you say, I'm just going to be confused that your label contradicts all the things that I accuse the label of believing." I very easily understand why leftists hate liberals so much, because I promise you on a personal level, I hate those people so much more than they hate me lol. Like the only people who have ever been truly nasty to me on the internet have been liberal-hating "leftists." And I still vote for their candidates, which is how we ended up with fucking Fetterman, something that I have yet to see any leftist try to reflect on what happened there. As much as it sucks that so many people are low-information Vibes voters or whatever, I think it's worth recognizing the reality that human interpersonal interaction is a very complicated, sophisticated thing that evolved over millenia. So much underpinning the notion of "trust" is going to be determined by interpersonal interactions and how people carry themselves generally, and that's vitally important for getting people on board with political projects. It doesn't matter how "objectively" good your platform might be, people need to trust that you'll implement it well, they need to trust that you aren't going to betray them or screw them over somehow, and a lot of the signals about that are sent just in how you behave as a person.

Anyway, her video about Daddy Politics was pretty good (small audience will see this link so I feel ok sharing it even though it is a Patreon bonus one https://youtu.be/x56kAvehyzk?si=Ac_qcUEF1A0kRzHl) and I think her observations about "leftism" vs liberalism are astute, albeit not the full explanation (nothing ever is.) Essentially that the rise of this particular incarnation of an American leftwing faction is in response to the social coding of Democrats as Mommy and Republicans as Daddy, and Trump's massive success as embracing that psychosexual Daddy affect and humiliating the Mommies in a way that transcends traditional conservative positions and values. There's a desire to harness that same power, I mean the "dirtbag left" in particular seemed to basically be saying it back when they were a thing people weren't ashamed to call themselves. We'll have a cross-party coalition of people who say the R-word, I guess, lol. A lot of online leftism I discard out of hand because in the end I don't really believe it is motivated by leftist values - they might be leftist positions, for now - but I don't understand how a person can truly believe in an ideology premised on an expanded social contract and also behave like a contemptible douche. In the meantime, I am likewise happy to embrace the feminine drudgery of the "liberal" label, where someone has to keep the day-to-day running while we aspire for a better world.

*Side note - people seem to be endlessly disappointed to learn that ContraPoints does not identify as a leftist and fequently says she is not one despite being smart and funny and having good ideas about things, and never once reflect on the possibility that this could be because she has a point about not being a "leftist." Another dimension to this is something another transfemme woman I follow on bsky laments a lot, which is that there is a contingent of the trans community (and some of the broader LGBTQ community too) that views simply being trans as a Radical Act, and as a result you are expected to be a Radical about everything else. It's an example she uses for how some lefist affect and positions are actually deeply anti-humanist and not really leftwing, because to forever be a Radical Act is to forever be an outside, oppressed minority and any attempts to rectify that would undermine the radicalism. And it actually is premised on the conservative beliefs about rigid social and gender roles, if being trans has to be more than just being a Person (who is trans.)

Expand full comment
5 more comments...

No posts